On October 9, North Korean leader Kim Jong-il and his third son Kim Jong-un held a brief meeting with the visiting Standing Committee Member of CCP (Chinese Communist Party) Central Political Bureau, CCP Political-legal committee secretary Zhou Yongkang to exchange views on China-DPRK relations.
On October 8th, Standing Committee of the DPRK Supreme People’s Assembly vice chairman Yang Hyong-sop confirmed that Kim Jong-un is the son of Kim Jong-il, on September 27, was promoted to Korean People’s Army General, on September 28, was elected vice chairman of the Korean Military Commission of the CPC Central Committee. Kim Jong-un will become North Korea’s third-generation leader.
After the meeting, Zhou Yongkang and North Korean leaders Kim Jong-il, Kim Jong-un and others, watched the large group calisthenics and artistic performance “Arirang”. “Arirang” is the most representative of the Korean folk ballads. The performance also included programs of Chinese style to reflect China-DPRK friendship.
On October 9, 2010, the Korean Central News Agency published these photos, the North Korean Leader Kim Jong-il visited the home of a National Arts Theatre staff who recently joined the theatre. The picture shows Kim Jong-il conversing with the family members. When Kim Jong-il visited the city streets of Pyongyang, he said that residential building is important to solve issues of people’s lives, he asked Pyongyang to carry out one hundred thousand housing projects to complete in the shortest time possible.
Korean Central News Agency provided this photo shows the WPK Central Military Commission vice Chairman Kim Jong-un (Center first row) accompanied Kim Jong-il (not in the picture) to visit the National Theatre of Korea. Norton Korea officially confirmed Kim Jong-un will be the third generation leader of North Korea. This photo is also the first hi-def picture of Kim Jong-un released by North Korea.
This is the first time Kim Jong-un appeared in a diplomatic occasion. Kim Jong-un appeared on the large-scale military parade, further demonstrated his status as the third generation leader. On October 10, together Zhou and the Kim’s father and son watched the Korean Worker’s Party 65th anniversary celebrations.
October 10, the Kim II-sung Square in Pyongyang held the grand military parade to celebrate the 65th anniversary of Korean Worker’s Party. Media said this year’s celebration is the largest one in history.
Female soldiers were emotional when passing by the rostrum
Sources: themanage.cn, Netease, Tianya
91 comments
Going to be interesting to see if he gets to really take over the ‘family business’ once he dad finally kicks the bucket – or if North Korea’s leadership takes a page from Mafia of late or the Kings and Emperors of old.
If the family business is the rackets, and baby Kim was well schooled he knows his survival will depend on keeping the elites rolling in imported brandy and other lux goods, and he will need to show he has an appetite for blood and terror so the big boys can feel secure with him as top dog. Can he pull all that off while still in his 20’s or mid 30’s? Perhaps with the right mentors…his best bet upon his fathers death would be a Stalin or Saddam style purge of the elite to shake things up, rattle the cages, and scare the competition.
sure it will be interesting to see how Jong-un will be the leader bringing change to the DPRK. I expect a change similar to that of the chinese a couple decades ago. an opening like that is unavoidable for north korea to survive.
China shoud stop interfering in other Countries internal affairs.
Korea to Koreans, China out of the peninsula.
Countries’, not Countries.
Sorry for the typo, I type 1000 words/second
Wasn’t it the Koreans that invited us over? We didn’t party crash anything.
Just don’t say WMD! Don’t say WMD!
What’s PDRK?
People’s Democratic Republic of Korea
Fuck, man, you don’t know this, don’t comment on this post
Isn’t it supposed to be the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea?
Funny how the most un-democratic nations always try to legitimate their existence through very democratic sounding names. It might be Korea but it’s neither democratic nor a republic and as to “people’s” I guess that Kim Jong Il just barely qualifies as one.
“Hey,, I thought WE were the Democratic Korean People’s Republic?”
“Nah,, he’s over there”
@en: HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
One – it’s DPRK, faggot.
Two – you don’t represent the voice of the DPRK, because there are no interwebs in the DPRK.
Three – bite me.
So what is The Great Leader going to do in retirement? Get on his UFO and return to his home planet of Blisstonia?
It IS well known for it’s high levels of bliss.
Looks like Un eats well.
At least one person in DPRK does, then!
He must be the most well fed person in the country… look at those chubby jowls!
I think it’s time to change country’s name and include the word “monarchy” somewhere…
Actually, without PRC’s money north Korea would collapse within 1 day.
So, it’s your government’s will that counts. If they say “Your country’s name should be People’s Democratic Kingdom of Korea”, they would have to change it.
The United States actually has traditionally provided funding and aid for North Korea as well. It’s essentially a buffer state.
The USA sends food aid – thanks to massive farming subsidies and price supports the US govt buys whopping piles of agricultural commodities which it then doesn’t know what to do with except send to other countries where the local leaders have wrecked the economy even worse.
Other than that, the US sends medical help during floods and bad storms and that’s about it. Sometimes the KJI accepts it, sometimes he refuses it.
Under the agreed framework set forth in 1994 the U.S. actually sent North Korea Light-water nuclear reactors for peaceful energy use and other aid.
http://faculty.washington.edu/sangok/The%20Bush%20Administration%20and%20North%20Korea.htm
Crystal can you goose step and carry ak47 at same time?
Looks like baby Kim’s big brother has some objections to the monarchy.
BEIJING (AP) — The casino-loving eldest son of North Korea’s Kim Jong Il — once tipped to succeed him before trying to sneak into Japan to go to Disneyland — says he opposes a hereditary transfer of power to his youngest half-brother.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/10/12/world/asia/AP-AS-NKorea-Rival-Sons.html?hpw
very interesting photos…
Good to see the bright future of North Korea. Long live Kim Jong Il, Long Live Kim Jung Un!
Good trolling there matey. You are forgetting yourself a bit. Most Chinese have nothing but contempt for Kim Jong Il.
Why would a Chinese hate Kim Jong Il?
The average chinese loves North Korea because they are a wartime ally and valuable trading partner.
Every year majority of the people who tour North korea are chinese.
During the Tiananmen Square incidents 3 countries stuck by China in the UN, North Korea, Myammar, and Pakistan. These countries are true friends of China, these are countries that were friends of China when China was weak and eve till now they are friends of China in 2010.
North Korea has never done anything to China other than offer their loyalty and friendship.
Matey? Argh, shiver me timbers! 😉
But what does Kim Kardashian think of all this?
Lol
winner of the internets
where is “Korean_guy”? must congratulate him for another communist torch passed on. China and Korea are like lovers. she bangs and then got banged, taking turns with China
Long Live The Democratic People’s Republic Of Korea!
Long Live The Korean Friendship association (KFA)!
Long Live The Dear Leader, Comrade Kim Jong-Il
The Great leader Kim Il-Sung forever president!
Long Live The Workers Party of Korea!
Long Live The Korean People’s Army!
Long Live North Korea (DPRK)
Long Live Communism!
Long Live Socialism!
Long Live Juche!
Mate, you got it wrong.
You must put The Great leader Kim Il-Sung forever president!
before Long Live The Dear Leader, Comrade Kim Jong-Il
Otherwise you’ll get a bullet in you head
Can we get an ignore function please?
Is it ChinaHush or KoreaHush?
I am really confused by this post.
Just want to make sure if dear Key is drunk. Key, look at the name of your website. It’s ChinaHush not DPRK-Hush or KoreaHush. The aim of the website is to report some negative things that are going on in China. We all know this website is not for anything beyond China. But anyway, this is your website, not ours. You can definitely write anything you like here, whatever mental status you are in.
georgeson, the aim of the website is not “to report some negative things that are going on in China”…
Topics can be anything interesting and China related.
DPRK’s decision on its next leader is important to China, this decision is also made during the visit of Zhou Yongkang which Kim Jong-un made his first diplomatic appearence that confirmed his status.
Besides, all contents are coming from Chinese news source, this is actally the biggest and most publicized news in China right now.
Oh, well. Let’s see one of the most important Chinese news source http://news.sina.com.cn
Today, the sequence of headlines is like this:
国防部长梁光烈在越南会见美国防长
[专家称预示钓鱼岛事件进入缓和阶段 中美军方筹备近期交流]
[梁光烈与日本防卫大臣简短交谈][中越国防部发表联合公报]
金正日在平壤会见周永康 朝鲜全程直播阅兵式
[金正日金正恩出席朝鲜建党65周年联欢会 高清组图]
欧美3位经济学家分享2010诺贝尔经济学奖
国家机关招考1.6万名公务员 明起接受报名 专题
杭州暂定居民只能新购1套房 环京县市限制外地人购房
[三部门将考核省级政府稳定房价工作 30个城市卖地收入增7成]
六家银行存款准备金率将上调50个基点
江西宜黄书记县长因自焚事件落马 评:期待问责可复制
河南教育厅发文号召中职学生去富士康实习
我国进入国家公关时代 国家宣传片关注普通人
方舟子方玄昌将申请对一审判决抗诉 专题
美国拟对华出售C-130运输机续：专家称中国未必愿买
西安一处油库发生爆炸 6人烧伤 疑为车辆卸油引发
调查称强迫购书与各种摊派成我国企业最大负担
专家称控烟政策太弱 香烟超标重金属可能由环境带入
孕妇被医院宣布死亡1小时后呼救 院方回避救人
郑州西安等城市出现带蛆柑橘
中网-男单德约科维奇卫冕 女单沃兹尼亚奇夺冠
大片: 黎明之前第1 2集 雷哥老范 雪豹
And the headline picture is our handsome President Obama. And the title of the picture is 奥巴马在演讲时遭观众扔书
And the domestic news actually does not talk about anything about “the king who is fucking” or the successor of “the king who is fucking” or anything about “the king who has fucked”. Here is the evidence.
更多>>
山东规定非煤矿企至少1名领导下井带班
广东大埔县90位村民参加宴席后呕吐腹痛(组图)
北京交通早高峰提前晚高峰延长
北京市消协向发改委建议降低固话月租费
北京警方启动电网3号行动打击黄赌毒
北京首次公选12名非中共处级干部
北京2385套公租房首次进行配租
广州地铁公司回应3号线隧道安全问题
北京市委书记与中央外宣办主任就网宣工作座谈
中国北方局部降温达10度以上 各地天气
探秘南沙群岛：石油开采队伍中没有我国公司
部分企业倒卖凭证蚕食家电以旧换新补贴 周末要闻
评论称某些领导有权有钱无敬畏之心
Sorry, I should have added Chinese characters after “the king who xxxxx”.
The king who has fucked 金日成
The king who is fucking 金正日
Hope these help
oh FFS, have a cry because someone posted an article that was Korea-related. Come on, are you twelve or something?
North Korea is an errant Chinese puppet state. It’s more of a province than Taiwan; ergo, it is relevant
And I know some people just don’t like http://www.sina.com. So for fair, I can also provide other evidence from websites that are more popular in young Chinese people.
Here is the tianya-focus (天涯聚焦) of http://www.tianya.cn (Just type http://www.tianya.cn and then click 浏览进入. You will see)
人民币升值对中国将是灾难
人民币升值过快，那中国经济就会像坐了过山车，猛地上去，然后就是猛地下来。前两年我们还可以乐呵呵…… 文/无邪明天
承包电视台栏目创收惹上“贪污罪” 政协委员救弟，呼吁司法公正
神人小月月横空出世，漫画全套赏析 画图，直到手疼眼疼心疼蛋疼
方舟子被打案件揭示的几个法律难题 判决结果肖传国拘役5个半月
一周：官员回应香烟重金属超标无标准 中国男人压力最大十个城市
天涯er很给力，献给红人们节日贺卡 都来都来，火速围观红人！
See? The most hot thing is not “the king who is fucking”. CHinese people dont care who is fucking in north korea. That may be concerned by a few Chinese diplomatic officials. But it is too far away from common Chinese’ interest (利益 & 兴趣).
You never propose you are posting negative Chinese news. But that’s happening every day which makes me misunderstand the aim of this website. That’s why people always say “it is not important what they say but what they do”.
Hey georgeson, looks like you are good at finding topics, please feel free to contribute to ChinaHush by submitting your writing/translation to me. I will be sure to post your piece if the topic is relevant.
I am more than happy to get some help from anyone who is willing. Even just send me topics you will like to see, and links to the articles. I will do my best to cover the selected topics, thanks.
Hey Key, new user/commenter on your site. Just spotted this random thread about a possible UFO experience in China:
http://www.ufoxh.com/showtopic-5809.aspx
Good for a translate? Good for a laugh?
“Female soldiers were emotional when passing by the rostrum”
Or maybe it was hunger?
When China pulls the plug -and it will happen some day- it’s the end of North Korea. Fatty and his family business was a nice little fence in it’s heyday but the more China is progressing the more troublesome the family dynasty and it’s own private amusement park is getting. The CCP is acting like it was nothing but it will never be forgiven or forgotten that the DPRK snuffed the 6 part negotiations in 2006 that China invested tons of prestige in getting back on track. During the last decade Kim Jong Il has been visiting China on average twice a year and for each time China sends lower and lower ranking officials to meet him and I’d like to think the reason is that he is requesting too many bottles of Hennesy and barrels of lobsters not to mention that he is, well, a head case with severe megalomania.
Ever since Deng Xiaoping and the more liberal wing came into power they’ve worked hard to keep the likes of Kim from popping their heads up in the CCP. Subsequently today Hu and his comrades are not comfortable around a person like Kim who represents everything that was wrong with the CCP in it’s early decades of control. At present I think China barely tolerates the guy solely because there aren’t currently any viable alternative solutions to the North Korea problem. It might just be wishful thinking for my part,, hell, maybe Hu, Wen and the CCP absolutely adore Kim. I hope not though. I’m certain of one thing on the other hand. China does NOT want a DPRK with a nuclear arsenal and it doesn’t want the perpetual lose cannon on the Korean peninsula to start a war that would destabilize the entire North-East Asia.
I agree with you that China does not want to destabilize the entire North-East Asia. However, I do not think Kim is megalomaniac, or crazy, like how Western media portrays him. I think in one of the interviews with Madeleine Albright, American Secretary of State, who actually met Kim, she stated that Kim was not crazy and was in fact quite “charming”. Anyways, I’m getting off topic, great post from you, and lulz @ the female soldiers crying because of hunger.
Not crazy – the old fat fuck is self delusional beyond belief. Besides being a pompous self deluded lunatic – he’s a cold hearted bastard that buys another golden loo while millions of his people starve to death. If he didn’t have big brother china looking out for his ass, he would have been sniped decades ago. He can’t die soon enough in my book, and I hope hell opens up and takes his fat ass son with him when it happens.
vonskippy what do you so dislike fat people?
Unless he is a boss hog, kid won’t last a day
The PRC has always had invaluable ties with the DPRK. We will continue to Support Kim Jong Un this century provided he continues the legacy of Kim Jong Il. It is only with the continued support of North Korea that China can secure their geographic border for defense and for strategical positioning over its neighbors. The next step we need is to find the opportunity and time window for North Korea to engage a military strike on South Korea.
LONG LIVE KIM JONG IL!!
LONG LIVE KIM JONG UN!!
LONG LIVE VOICE OF BRAVO!!
“The next step we need is to find the opportunity and time window for North Korea to engage a military strike on South Korea.”
You stupidity beggars belief. If this is the result of education to the Chinese masses I think I’d prefer you stay a nation of farmers.
He looks just as ugly and retarded as his father.
Hope the next leader will be more pragmatic as North Korea is cornered into a hole with no way out. They do not want to apologise for the sinking of a South Korean sub. People are starving in North Korea. They need to really implement some urgent economic reform and also free up the state from the repressive controls.
China doesn’t want North Korea to sink into chaos as there will be a flood of refugees at its borders and also chaos in the peninsular by upsetting the balance of power in favour of the US/JPN.
North Korea only has submarines made in the 1960’s that they bought from the USSR during the cold war
The Cheonan was performing a military drill with 3 USA Aegis cruisers all produced in 2002-2007
China and Russia have both launched their investigation, it was a naval mine that sunk the cheonan.
Do you honestly believe that a poorly maintained submarine from the cold war era can get close enough to a modern aegis cruiser to fire a torpedo and then escape in time?
(DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW LOUD SUBS MADE IN THE 1970’s ARE?)
Also the torpedo remains dredged from the lake was a GERMAN made torpedo, the only evidence that they have of it coming from North Korea is the korean number 1 is painted on it, furthermore it also does not make sense that the pain on the torpedo was not vaporized.
Good thing China and Russia has done the investigation. Thing is, would it be accepted by the US/South Korea. I doubt it will… would it be credible, is it bipartisan or is it skewed to cover North Korea’s guilt, force fed propanganda.
North Korea is like opaque in its military spending and infrastructure. How would you verify they are using 70s submarine technology. Some reports have suggested the Yono class submarine not the older soviet era classes.
Anyway, thats beside the point, North Korea has a real opportunity to make its economic mark just like China did. It can’t afford to keep this one up brickmanship for too long as China would have to bear the real financial and political weight to prop up the younger Kim until he’s steadfast and surefooted in his own ability to manage a country on his own.
To understand the Cheonan incident and why it is almost impossible you need to understand how submarine warfare works.
Typical protocol whenever a sub is spotted for USA navy they have to report it immediately.
Since the Sonar systems of the cheonan far outranges probably any Sonar system that North korea possibly could have the only way the North could have sunk it is if they on the submarine turned off their active sonar and used only their passive sonar until they detected the general location of the cheonan and then fired an acoustic torpedo towards the general location of the cheonan.
But here is where it breaks down, even if the midget submarine was hiding with their sonar turned off while the cheonan was using active sonar the minute that the midget submarine fired the location of the submarine would be given away and the torpedo would be detected on the sonar. And then the torpedo warning message will be sent.
However no such message was ever recieved.
For this to happen there must be a massive chain of screwups
The cheonan must wander away from escorts, and the crew of the cheonan saw the torpedo fire but they did not send message the only reason why they would not be able to send message is if the crew was already dead or the crew purposely saw the torpedo and they purposely let the ship sink. And then somehow he midget submarine managed to evade the Aegis cruisers that combed the area after the sinking.
North Korea being able to perform this and leave absolutely no evidence is as likely and ridiculous as 1 man parachuting into a army base and killing everybody singlehandedly.
Many South koreans do not believe that the North sank the cheonan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_sinking
According to a survey conducted by Seoul National University’s Institute for Peace and Unification Studies, less than one third of South Koreans trust the findings of the multinational panel[74][75]. Lee Jung Hee, a lawmaker with the opposition Democratic Labor Party, was sued for defamation by seven people at South Korea’s Joint Chiefs of Staff. Lee said during a speech in parliament that while the Defense Ministry had said there was no feed from a thermal observation device showing the moment the warship’s stern and bow split apart, such a video did exist. Prosecutors then questioned Shin Sang-cheol, who served on the panel that investigated the incident and also runs Seoprise, over his assertion that the Cheonan sank in an accident[76] and that the evidence linking the North to the torpedo was tampered with. The magnified photograph of writing on the torpedo showed that the marking was written on top of a rusted surface.[citation needed] The Defense Ministry asked the National Assembly to eject Shin from the panel for “arousing public mistrust.”[77][78] Shin stated that he doubted the official conclusion on the sinking, saying that when he looked at the dead sailors’ bodies, they bore no signs of an explosion.[71]
“North Korea being able to perform this and leave absolutely no evidence is as likely and ridiculous as 1 man parachuting into a army base and killing everybody singlehandedly.”
Apparently, you have never seen “Commando” with Arnold Schwarzenegger. Based on a true story. Scout’s honor.
You say many many south Koreans do not believe the official version. Yet you also begin your topic with the statement:
“To understand the Cheonan incident and why it is almost impossible you need to understand how submarine warfare works.”
The implication of your first statement is that most people do not understand sub tactics and warfare. As if you are an expert. Of course you are an expert you looked it up online. You are no doubt just a few courses away from getting your admiral stripes in the Korean navy, as are your internet sources. Yet you contradict yourself and state that most south Koreans have doubts about the incident. Since most people do not understand sub warfare it stands to reason; they would have doubts. But for you their doubt is only further proof that your hypothesis is correct.
Most South Koreans may not understand the submarine warfare aspect and USA navy protocols.
But many have seen the evidence.
The highly technologically advanced Cheonan was sunk despite being guarded by the 3 most high tech warships in the USA arsenal, after dredging the sea floor the remains of a German torpedo was found with the korean marking one on it.
The South koreans have heard stories above starving north korea all their life, it makes perfect sense that they would question how a north korean sub made with technology from the 1960’s could sink such an advance modern warship undetected. As for their midget sub that was captured it was still 1960’s shit.
What do you know about navy protocols since they are classified?
Evidence? An inquest is not a trial in a court of law.
The south Korean people do not understand sub warfare but you do?
The south Korean People are not experts about sub warfare, but because they have heard stories about starving north Korea they are now experts about North Korean technology? Furthermore, why is what the ill informed S. Korean people believe or not believe important to the validity of the inquest?
These protocols are not classified, pretty much every Navy follows the same procedure, if you see a submarine or if you see a torpedo on the sonar you send a radio transmission to headquarters
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/04/113_63624.html
The military denied a media report Sunday that the Navy received a message concerning an “unusual situation” on the frigate Cheonan at 9:15 p.m. on March 26 just minutes before it sank near the sea border with North Korea, saying the ship and the naval command held ordinary radio communications at 9:19 p.m.
The Cheonan gave an all clear radio message to the headquarters at 9:19 and a explosion occurred and the ship sank at 9.22
The bottomline is that there is no proof that North Korea sunk it, because they simply don’t have the technology to do something like this undetected. Futhermore the torpedo should be detected by Sonar the minute it is fired, the torpedo does not have instantaneous movement it has to travel quite awhile before it hits. The North Korean sub must be far away enough in order to avoid getting detected by the sonar of the cheonan.
Futhermore there is no proof that even if it was sunk by a sub that the sub came from north korea. They simply found remnants of a torpedo with the korean number 1 written on it.
Basically its the equivalent of a bunch of police finding a dead body that was stabbed to death, and they find a name written on the knife, it turns out that the guy whos name is written on the knife has a bad history with the guy that was killed.
In this situation with the name on the knife, do you think that the guy whos name was written on the knife be sentenced to death or life in prison?
The average south korean is also highly distrustful in their government.
If anybody from the government catches you saying anything good about north korea they will jail you. The books in violation are books about communism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Act_%28South_Korea%29
In 2002, Mr. Lee, a new recruit in the South Korean army, was sentenced to 2 years in prison for having said “I think Korean separation is not North Korean but American fault” to fellow soldiers. The Military Prosecutor’s Office could not charge him for what he had said, but it searched Mr. Lee’s civilian house and found various books, and charged him in violation of the NSA Article 7 Clauses 1 and 5.
“These protocols are not classified, pretty much every Navy follows the same procedure, if you see a submarine or if you see a torpedo on the sonar you send a radio transmission to headquarters ”
(Yeah right…then you go on to make a generalization about what all navies do. )
You state there is no evidence that a sub did it and if a sub was the culprit it could have been from any navy….
(Since the waters the Cheonan was patrolling are disputed, and N. Korea has made recent threats about taking action, not to mention N. Korea history of self serving violent attacks against the south, to use your own analogy the best suspect after a knife attack would be a person with a violent homicidal history, who made recent threats against the victim.)
The suspect had motive, means, and stated intent, but this is not a criminal case, and the evidence does not need to be beyond doubt, nor should it be, when dealing with a rogue regime with N. Korea’s history.
Furthermore, you posts show a real lack of understand about military matters. If you knew anything about military history there are plenty of examples of weapons with a technological advantage under certain circumstances being defeated by inferior technology, its called tactics.
Examples from WWII:
Curtis P-40 (obsolete) vs Zero, Zero vs F4F Wildcat (disadvantage), Hellcat vs Zero (obsolete)
Skilled p-40 pilots, using the right tactics could still shoot down faster more maneuverable Zeros, and they did mostly in China. Likewise, later in the war skilled Zero pilots could still shot down much faster, better armored Hellcats and they did using the right tactics.
You state that the attack was impossible. That’s just absurd. The N. Koreans had from around 1983 when that class of ship was launched to counter it and study S. Korea’s tactical use of that class ship on regular patrols. The ship was scheduled for scrapping, which means S. Korea considered the class obsolete and not worth a major refit.
Not to mention since the attack took place in coastal waters any sub would have a tactical advantage unless it was built before WWII. The real threat was the quality of the torpedo, with the advantage over the decades shifting to subs instead of surface ships.
I’m not aware of what the current protocols are for the S. Korean navy, but since the cold war (historic declassified information), and even before anti submarine warfare has been a multilayer-ed system, that involves tracking hostile subs from the moment they leave their base, using all assets from air recon, satellites, to acoustic devices such as air dropped or permanent buoys. If single ship defenses were so superior, nations would not spend billions on preemptive tracking and intelligence gathering.
Of course the best way to defeat a sub is to bomb it when its back in the pen, which S. Korea could not do without starting a full scale war, which is why the the Cheonan was vulnerable to a coastal ambush attack.
Again, if you had the most basic understanding of military history fundamentals, not to mention international relations, and Korean history you would not make the arguments you make. This topic seems to be way out of your area of expertise, and it is most galling.
Wow, you don’t really know anything do you?
You are comparing incidents of the past where technologically inferior triumphed against technologically superior.
But there is something fundamentally wrong with your argument.
This is modern warfare using precision guided munitions and sonars. A technologically disadvantaged ship or sub will be detected on radar/sonar by the enemy before they can detect the enemy. Then all it takes is a simple push of a button to get GAME OVER.
And just because the sub came out in 1983 does not mean that technology is not from the 1960’s
North Korea came out with a new tank in 2002 but its fighting capability is equivalent to a T-62 a tank made in the 1960’s
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/08/17/2010081700503.html
The issue is not why the submarine was not destroyed. The issue is the submarine NEVER appeared on Sonar. A torpedo NEVER appeared on Sonar. North korea cannot have done this.
And yes North korea is a possible suspect, but in any court of law you need more evidence other than motive. Knife with your name on it found in scene of the crime is not evidence.
Well BE,
Mark is a well known dumbass on this site, so don’t take what he says too seriously. He is too brainwashed by Western propaganda.
Duh! Obviously if they had detected the torpedo or sub they could have taken some type of evasive action, which means the sub used tactics and weapons, which made it hard to detect in coastal waters until it was too late.
You stated that the ship would have picked up the torpedo the moment it left the subs tube. That assertion is false. Conventional pulse radar is not effective in picking up modern, smaller, faster torpedoes. As I mentioned in previous post in coastal waters its not the sub that matters but the torpedo. Since you know nothing about sub warfare,you cant possibly understand that.
Basically, since the end of the cold war the U.S. and its allies have ignored submarine counter measures because the large impetus for development was the Soviet navy which is no longer a threat. During the lull other countries have developed torpedo technology which is now an asymmetrical threat to surface ships, particularly in coastal waters.
The ship could have sailed right over the sub which is a tactic used when an inferior (Diesel) sub must attack a superior ship, meaning the sub was so close to the ship perhaps resting in ambush on the bottom, that it neutralizes the ships active defense system, and the shot was taken so close in that the ship did not have time to engage, or the torpedo shot could have been some distance as torpedoes are so fast conventional pulse sonar can not quickly detect them in time.
According to Rep Courtney; who just helped fund a $400,570,075 continuation contract from the Naval Sea Systems Command to support the U.S. submarine force:
“The Cheonan was a sitting duck,” “Even low-cost submarines by a country that is not a superpower, like North Korea, can do great damage to surface ships because there’s a gap in sonar technology.”
Congressman Courtney is the sole member of the Connecticut Congressional delegation to sit on the House Armed Services Committee. He is a member of the Sea power and Expeditionary Forces Subcommittee, which has jurisdiction over the U.S. Navy.
The only thing that can detect a modern fast torpedo quickly enough is a technology which is only now being developed called CAS (Continuous Active Sonar). CAS will be in development until 2011, and begin deployment in 2012.
Even CAS at its current design stage can not detect a modern torpedo in the water. Again the issue is getting a timely alert to the presence of a sub and torpedo.
The facts about CAS and conventional sonar refute your key assertion that the ship should have detected the sub and or the torpedo based solely on technology.
Technology is not the only factor. There is the human element and tactics. For example at Pearl Harbor the U.S. navy had a powerful radar installation which actually detected the first wave of Japanese planes attacking Peal in time to alert the ships and mount an airborne defensive attack, but because of human failures in the chain of command the intelligence was never acted on.
Also, the Americans based on the technology of the era, thought it was impossible for the Japanese to use aerial torpedoes in the shallow waters of Peal Harbor and that the ships would be safe against carrier torpedo bombers while at anchorage there.
However, the Japanese created a tactical advantage by adapting conventional ship deployed torpedoes and putting wooden fins on them that would break off when the torpedo hit the water so they could run shallow, and then rehearsing their pilots for months in how to deploy them correctly under the right conditions.
Another tactic the Japanese used was to also use dive bombers carrying heavy bombs, which possibly inflicted more damage than the torpedoes at close range on the wooden decked battleships of that era.
Again this is all basic stuff.
Mark, you’re such an idiot that I’m starting to doubt your ability to read. Are you trying to say North Korea has modern missile technology that can bypass sonar? LOL
>some type of evasive action
This post just shows that you know nothing about submarines, you can’t dodge a torpedo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_homing
Torpedos can also be guided actively by using a control wire using Sonar.
Let me guess you think that Jet Fighter’s can dodge missiles too? Looks like your knowledge about the military came from playing modern warfare 2.
>You stated that the ship would have picked up the torpedo the moment it left the subs tube. That assertion is false. Conventional pulse radar is not effective in picking up modern, smaller, faster torpedoes. As I mentioned in previous post in coastal waters its not the sub that matters but the torpedo. Since you know nothing about sub warfare,you cant possibly understand that.
Are you kidding me? You can detect fish with Sonar and moving faster will actually make you MORE visible on sonar. I’m starting to doubt whether you even know what a sonar is.
>Basically, since the end of the cold war the U.S. and its allies have ignored submarine counter measures because the large impetus for development was the Soviet navy which is no longer a threat. During the lull other countries have developed torpedo technology which is now an asymmetrical threat to surface ships, particularly in coastal waters.
Yes South Korea has ignored Submarine countermeasures, thats why the Cheonan was hunting for submarines when it sank
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_%28PCC-772%29
>The ship’s primary mission was coastal patrol, with an emphasis on anti-submarine operations.
>The ship could have sailed right over the sub which is a tactic used when an inferior (Diesel) sub must attack a superior ship, meaning the sub was so close to the ship perhaps resting in ambush on the bottom, that it neutralizes the ships active defense system, and the shot was taken so close in that the ship did not have time to engage, or the torpedo shot could have been some distance as torpedoes are so fast conventional pulse sonar can not quickly detect them in time.
Do you even understand how Sonar works? Do you even know how radar works? If you did know then you would realize that what you are proposing is IMPOSSIBLE. To explain in layman’s terms on why this is impossible imagine the sonar as a field that projects from the ship, any object within that field that is as large as a fish.
>“The Cheonan was a sitting duck,” “Even low-cost submarines by a country that is not a superpower, like North Korea, can do great damage to surface ships because there’s a gap in sonar technology.”
Yes low tech subs can do great damage but the issue here is not about the sinking but detection
>The only thing that can detect a modern fast torpedo quickly enough is a technology which is only now being developed called CAS (Continuous Active Sonar). CAS will be in development until 2011, and begin deployment in 2012.
WRONG about CAS
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/articles/20100826.aspx
> A major problem with ASW (Anti-submarine warfare) is that your submarine detection software equipment is turned off most of the time, and when it is used it requires a lot of trained operators and lawyers (to deal with the growing number of lawsuits filed by NGOs seeking to protect sea animals from noise pollution). Ships depend on intelligence, usually from large organizations like the CIA or military intel operations, to alert them that a submarine threat might exist in their area.
>For nearly a decade now, research has been underway on a solution in the form of Continuous Active Sonar (CAS). This is a low level sonar signal that operates like radar, providing a continuous flow of data on what might be down there. Current sonars send out a more powerful signal, but at a low rate (one or more a minute).
CAS is not a better SONAR, the reason they are trying to develop CAS is because CAS disturbs the fishes. CAS provides worse image then regular sonar because it is much weaker. In a WAR DRILL however Sonar will be turned on 100% at much higher frequencies. CAS is for use during peacetime or prolonged antisubmarine warfare.
>Technology is not the only factor. There is the human element and tactics. For example at Pearl Harbor the U.S. navy had a powerful radar installation which actually detected the first wave of Japanese planes attacking Peal in time to alert the ships and mount an airborne defensive attack, but because of human failures in the chain of command the intelligence was never acted on.
Again GUIDED WEAPONS, what part of this do you not understand? I see you on my radar, I press a button, you die its as simple as that. Sorry but this is 2008 not WW2
Don’t get your panties in a knot Mark. You got your ass handed down by BE. You haven’t proved cause, effect, or satisfied the rules of evidence. You also relied on one of the most uncredible sources of information ‘the CIA’ lol.
The branch of the US government that aided the Dalai Lama in Guerrilla warfare against China and paid for all his expenses. REALLY MARK? Do you think you have a point?
God, I love showing you trolls your place in the intellectual hierarchy
You write
“And yes North Korea is a possible suspect, but in any court of law you need more evidence other than motive. Knife with your name on it found in scene of the crime is not evidence.”
As I mentioned before an inquest is not a court of Law, nor should it be. If you knew anything about maritime law, and international reflations you would know that an inquest is a legitimate way to determine facts and findings. That is just a fact.
You write:
“And just because the sub came out in 1983 does not mean that technology is not from the 1960′s”
I wrote earlier that the ship class was introduced around 83. I guess you do not know the difference between a ship and a sub.
You obviously cant read Mark… Sad
The article you linked to while interesting does not contradict the facts. The bottom line is there is a type of torpedo that can not be detected by any type of sonar presently.
For most intelligence analysts the sinking of the Cheonon was confirmation that North Korea now has that type of torpedo.
Which is why Rep Courtney who gets regular intelligence briefings because he is on a congressional defense committee said “The Cheonan was a sitting duck,” “Even low-cost submarines by a country that is not a superpower, like North Korea, can do great damage to surface ships because there’s a gap in sonar technology.”
Aside from that, other sources validate my other contention that tactics were also in play. From Washing Post:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/05/asian_analysts_question_korea_torpedo_incident.html
“American spy satellites were also monitoring the exercise, “so the U.S. would have known that North Korean submarines had left their ports on a mission,” adds Scott Snyder, director of Center for U.S.-Korea Policy at the Asia Foundation.
“The route the North Korean submarines apparently took was from the East Sea, not directly from the North across the NLL,” or Northern Limit Line, the sea boundary unilaterally imposed by Seoul. “Essentially, they went the roundabout way and came at the ROK vessel from behind,” he said.
But Bruce Klingner, chief of the CIA’s Korea Branch in the 1990s, said “anti-submarine operations are far more difficult than is often realized.
“Beyond the obvious difficulty in tracking something that is designed to operate quietly, navies are confronted with natural acoustical phenomena as shallow, noisy littoral waters and layers of water salinity which can provide cover for submarines.”
Moreover, says Terence Roehrig, a professor at the Naval War College, “the Cheonan was an older Pohang-class corvette and not one of these [newer] ships.”
“Satellite and communications coverage of sub bases can tell when subs have left base…” adds Bruce Bechtol, Jr., professor of international relations at the Marine Corps Command and Staff College. “It cannot tell locations of submarines once they are at sea — unless they surface or communicate.”
“A mini-submarine like the type that is assessed to have penetrated the NLL is designed specifically for covert maneuvering in shallow waters like those that exist off of the west coast of the Korean Peninsula,” he said.
“It appears from the reports that [the South Korean Ministry of Defense] has released that a submarine departed port off the west coast of North Korea, accompanied by a support vessel. The submarine perhaps could have come fairly close to the NLL using diesel power, then switched to battery power, which is much quieter,” Bechtol added. “The submarine could have then slipped past the NLL at an appropriate time and waited for a ROK ship to approach.”
Suspicions about what happened, Bechtol said, are unwarranted.
“The fact of the matter is, a submarine did infiltrate into South Korean waters — and they have done so in the past fairly frequently,” he said.
“It is their mission.””””””
What type of torpedo are you talking about?
The most advanced torpedo in the world is the supercavitating torpedo and it is still detected.
Tell me how does this magical sonar evading torpedo work? And what is it called?
Why is North korea the only country with this technology?
Again I ask you do you even know how sonar works? Its not something that you can defeat by attacking from behind
The
and ramblings of a USA politician? where these the same fools who claim that Iraq had wmd?
Baekryong island has calm waters that could not possibly muddle up the sonar.
The Aegis plane array sonar has a range of 30KM in all directions, an insanely fast moving underwater object? It would have definitely been detected had it gotten into range.
You have lost this one since it is clear that you have no idea what you are talking about. Claiming that ships could dodge torpedos, then comparing world war 2 combat situations completely unaware that modern day wafare occurs miles away from each other using guided weapons that simply cannot miss, Bringing up CAS without any idea of what it was or how it worked. Then claiming that the ship could have walked over the sub.
Basic Econ
you wrote
“Again GUIDED WEAPONS, what part of this do you not understand? I see you on my radar, I press a button, you die its as simple as that. Sorry but this is 2008 not WW2”
Ans:
What part of “measure” and “countermeasure” do you not understand?
You wrote:
CAS is not a better SONAR, the reason they are trying to develop CAS is because CAS disturbs the fishes. CAS provides worse image then regular sonar because it is much weaker. In a WAR DRILL however Sonar will be turned on 100% at much higher frequencies. CAS is for use during peacetime or prolonged antisubmarine warfare.
Ans:
Conventional sonar is to slow to track what is basically an underwater rocket that moves at a rate over 200 mph underwater. Tracking an underwater rocket is not the same thing as looking at a school of fish on sonar. No need to explain why it is just a fact…you can look it up. Its about the time factor not ecology.
>What part of “measure” and “countermeasure” do you not understand?
And what measures are these? besides streamlining torpedos and coating them with acoustic absorbing materials theres nothing you can do to make them stealthier.
>Conventional sonar is to slow to track
Your ignorance is showing again, sonar travels at the speed of sound in water, the speed is fixed just like the speed of light or the speed at which electrons move through a wire. If you are talking about high frequency sonar ships are already using that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound
>The speed of sound in water is of interest to anyone using underwater sound as a tool, whether in a laboratory, a lake or the ocean. Examples are sonar, acoustic communication and acoustical oceanography.
Even at the lowest frequencies torpedos can be detected
http://www.signalsystemscorp.com/Cas.htm
>Improvements to enviornmental impact and target localization are anticipated.
The only improvements are high frequency sonar can be used for tracking and guidance and less environmental impact
This kid looks like a spoiled little butterball. Lay off the bulgogi son.
I hope they have more parades. I love seeing them goose stepping skirted young soldier girls waving them big swords and big black rifles.
I don’t normally herp, but when I do, I herp a derp derp
Hush Team. Fabulous photos…really good. I see that the new Brilliant Leader is going for the ‘do just like his old man. The eldest son loafs around Macau and Bejing….sort of a remmitance son, while the youngest was passed over because he was considered effeminate and, believe it, has a serious addiction to Eric Clapton.
Pretty funny that the oldest lost his legacy attempting to see mickey mouse in Japan under a false passport. I would love to have seen little Kims face when he found out his son tried to go to Disneyland. Now Eldest son Kim is free to ride all the roller coasters as much as he wants to.
He looks exactly like Eternal President Kim Il Sung and his Anti-Japanese self is going to fight for Korea. That’s why his citizens tear up at the sight of him. Handycam him through his clothes, Japan. Go ahead.
where is korean guy? should congratulate him for such glorious event. she bang!
Yeah, there’s less humor here without that old gook.
It’s like South Koreans have a way of being innately funny. They don’t have to say anything, they can just stand there and they look laughable. But the problem is that it makes it hard to take anything they say seriously.
talking about yourself, right?
Hahaha nice TRYat a comeback but South Koreans are shit at everything they do. So uh… You Fail!
shh gook